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RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)

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 Hello everyone,

 I am an Indonesian. Currently living ( since  1 month ago) in Hamburg, Germany for work. I have applied for the Blue Card visa 2 weeks ago, but I just received a rejection letter from Bezirksamt Hamburg. This is the short version of my residency condition.

1. I did my bachelor in Civil Engineering in Indonesia
2. I worked fulltime approximately 1.5 years with that degree in Indonesia.
3. I moved and lived in the Netherlands for my Master Degree in Offshore Engineering (Approximately 2 years).
4. I applied for a visa in the Netherlands for looking for a job (valid for 1 year, working without restriction in the Netherlands, free movement in Schengen Area [90 days])
5. I managed to enter to Germany from the Netherlands using that visa.

My annual salary sated in the job contract is 3500 gross monthly, which is 42000 annually, as an offshore und schiffbauingenieure (offshore and shipbuilding engineer). It is for a permanent position (without specific time range) but with 6 months probation period first. And this complies with the requirement of Blue Card (job with shortage occupation for 2018 is 40560 annually and 52000 for the normal one). I did all the paper works. I rent my own flat in Hamburg, I registered my residency (anmeldung), I switch my insurance from Netherlands based to German based insurance, my master degree diploma has been legalized/apostile (I did it in the Netherlands). Basically, I have started coming to the office (since 2 weeks ago), start doing the work and this is even also my second week attending intensive Deutsch course in certain school which paid by my employer (I come everyday 3 hours in the working day for this lesson). But I still have no idea why my Blue Card application is rejected. I agree that my salary threshold is quite in the lower limit though. The letter I received stated like this:

Die arbeits und Lohnbedingungen entsprechen nicht den tariflichen / ortsüblichen Bedingungen für vergleichbare deutshce Arbeitnehmer. Laut berufenet verdienen Schiffbauingeniure ab 4414 Euro bis 5579 Euro im Monat.

which means, I need to earn 52968 - 66948 Euro annually. That is even higher than the minimum salary for the normal profession (not the job with shortage occupation ones). Engineer is also considered as a job with shortage occupation (even specifically Civil and Shipbuilding Engineer jobs are clearly on the list).

I asked some of my colleague in the office (she is German), and she earns comparable with me. She earns slightly more because she did student work there for 4 years before joining as a full-time engineer. But, even after 3 years working there, she still earns less than 50000 annually. She also mentioned for that kind of salary, is more likely for a project manager, etc, not for an early stage (I agree, in bigger companies, ones can earn 52000 annually for the starters).

I have asked my employer about my starting date before coming to the office whether it is really OK to start before I have my working permit, and they said yes. I can definitely start working. Even when I applied in the immigration office in Hamburg, I also inform them this. And they say, "Basically, you meet all of the requirements. You have 90 days right to stay here before your Blue Card issued" and did not say "dont start working"

Is this letter of rejection is rejection based from Federal Employment Agency or something else?
I already in the process of settling down in Germany, pay quite a lot for a flat, even reject another job offer in different countries. If this Blue Card application in the end cant be accepted, that will be a huge loss for me. Because I am quite pessimistic that my employer can raise my salary as stated in the letter I received from Bezirksamt Hamburg (considering the fact from colleagues I mentioned earlier).


Anyone has any tips what should I do?
that would be highly appreciated.

Kind Regards,

FF
0 (0 Votes)

First of all, I have no experience with Blue card. 
In your case I will talk to a lawyer and let him/her sent the response on behalf of you. 
If the lawyer is convinced that you fulfill the crieteria then it should not be difficult.
0 (0 Votes)

Your problem is caused by your future employer!
To get an employee under the 'MINT' rules witth a salary less than 52.000,- € per year, the employer has to fill out a form 'Stellenbeschreibung' (job description) where he has to give some details of your job. If he writes just common sentntences, this can be the reason for the Federal Employment Agency to deny the application.
The employer has to explain why it must be YOU, that you have some special skills which noboday else have (or maybe just a few ;- )
Then it can work. Your future employer has to conatct the Employment Agency and clear the case. No lawyer can help if the employer is to lazy or has no experiences, or both ;-
Good luck
Detlef
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
3/11/18 5:53 PM as a reply to javi alco.
javi alco:
First of all, I have no experience with Blue card. 
In your case I will talk to a lawyer and let him/her sent the response on behalf of you. 
If the lawyer is convinced that you fulfill the crieteria then it should not be difficult.
Thanks Alco, Lawyer haven`t cross my mind before you mentioned it. I appreciate that.
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
6/27/18 11:24 PM as a reply to trust7.
trust7:
Your problem is caused by your future employer!
To get an employee under the 'MINT' rules witth a salary less than 52.000,- € per year, the employer has to fill out a form 'Stellenbeschreibung' (job description) where he has to give some details of your job. If he writes just common sentntences, this can be the reason for the Federal Employment Agency to deny the application.
The employer has to explain why it must be YOU, that you have some special skills which noboday else have (or maybe just a few ;- )
Then it can work. Your future employer has to conatct the Employment Agency and clear the case. No lawyer can help if the employer is to lazy or has no experiences, or both ;-
Good luck
Detlef

Thanks for your extensive and experience-based suggestion.
When you mentioned about 'Stellenbeschreibung' / (job description), I remembered my employer fill in some sort of this kind of form. If I recall, all of the documents I submit (based on Hamburg's website) are:

Allgemeines
  1. vollständig ausgefülltes Antragsformular [completed application form] -> I download this from Hamburg's website and fill it in: OK!
  2. Nationalpass -> OK!
  3. biometrietaugliches Lichtbild (nicht älter als sechs Monate) [biometric photograph]: OK!
  4. aktuelle Meldebestätigung bzw. ausgefüllter Anmeldebogen inkl. Woh-nungsgeberbestätigung [confirmation of registration of place of residence or completed registration form incl. landlords-confirmation]:  OK !
  5. Mietvertrag [rental agreement] -> OK!
  6. Nachweis über durchgehenden Krankenversicherungsschutz [confirmation of continous health insurance coverage] -> OK!
Unselbstständige Arbeit (Beschäftigung) [Employment]
  1. Arbeitsvertrag / Vertragsentwurf [employment contract / draft of contract] -> signed by both of us, OK!
  2. aktuelle Arbeitsbestätigung [confirmation of employment] -> My employer made some sort of paragraph
  3. Gehaltsabrechnungen der letzten drei Monate [last three salary statements] -> I don’t have this of course. This is my first job in Germany.
  4. Angaben zum Betrieb und zur Beschäftigung (Vordruck) [workplace and job description (official form)] -> I downloaded the form from Hamburg's website. Is this the one that you mentioned? I saw my employer fill this form as well.
  5. Qualifikationsnachweise zzgl. Fächer- und Notenliste [academic proof of qualification plus transcript of records] -> I have it with me, also It have legalized by the apostile: OK!
  6. Lebenslauf [resume/CV] -> OK!

What am I quite worry is, the case when the decision cant changed. Because seems like all of the requirements above have been fulfilled and submitted, but they still reject it. Anyway, I will talk with my employer again and mentioned your suggestion.

Thank you very much!

Kind Regards,

FF
0 (0 Votes)

Fredo Ferdian:
 Basically, I have started coming to the office (since 2 weeks ago), start doing the work and this is even also my second week attending intensive Deutsch course in certain school which paid by my employer (I come everyday 3 hours in the working day for this lesson). But I still have no idea why my Blue Card application is rejected. I agree that my salary threshold is quite in the lower limit though. The letter I received stated like this:

Die arbeits und Lohnbedingungen entsprechen nicht den tariflichen / ortsüblichen Bedingungen für vergleichbare deutshce Arbeitnehmer. Laut berufenet verdienen Schiffbauingeniure ab 4414 Euro bis 5579 Euro im Monat.


Did you really start working without a work permit?!?

As a non-EU citizen you require a work permit before you start working!

Secondly, you have already received an explanation why your application was refused. Blue Card applications with a low salary are evaluated to ensure that the job is in a shortage occupation AND that the salary is appropriate for the position.  The Agentur für Arbeit seems to think that you were offered a dumping wage and has rejected your application .

I think you really need a lawyer who can:

1. Smooth over the fact (if possible) that you've been working under the table 

2. Convince the Agentur that your employer pays everyone poorly, not just the foreigners 
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
3/12/18 1:56 PM as a reply to Arianne.
Arianne:
Did you really start working without a work permit?!?


If his job visa in the Netherlands is valid in germany, it should not be a problem for him to work without arbeitsvisum or blue card. But he should get blue card before he exceeds the number of working hours mentioned in the job visa. When i started my job, i did not have the work visa, i was told by ABH that i can work on Job visa until I get my arbeitsvisum. 

Best thing is that the employer writes indonesian is necessary for the job.   
-1 (1 Vote)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
6/27/18 11:25 PM as a reply to Arianne.
Arianne:
[quote=
] Basically, I have started coming to the office (since 2 weeks ago), start doing the work and this is even also my second week attending intensive Deutsch course in certain school which paid by my employer (I come everyday 3 hours in the working day for this lesson). But I still have no idea why my Blue Card application is rejected. I agree that my salary threshold is quite in the lower limit though. The letter I received stated like this:

Die arbeits und Lohnbedingungen entsprechen nicht den tariflichen / ortsüblichen Bedingungen für vergleichbare deutshce Arbeitnehmer. Laut berufenet verdienen Schiffbauingeniure ab 4414 Euro bis 5579 Euro im Monat.


Did you really start working without a work permit?!?

As a non-EU citizen you require a work permit before you start working!

Secondly, you have already received an explanation why your application was refused. Blue Card applications with a low salary are evaluated to ensure that the job is in a shortage occupation AND that the salary is appropriate for the position.  The Agentur für Arbeit seems to think that you were offered a dumping wage and has rejected your application .

I think you really need a lawyer who can:

1. Smooth over the fact (if possible) that you've been working under the table 

2. Convince the Agentur that your employer pays everyone poorly, not just the foreigners Thanks for your response.

Yeah, as I previously mentioned, I have started coming for several training programs (including Deutsch). I am well aware that as a non-EU citizen, it is forbidden to work without permit. That's why I asked them before start coming in the office. and they told me that ("You can definitely start working"). And even I asked the same thing with the immigration officer in Hamburg when I submit all of my documents, and they didn't say no. That's why I confuse. It feels wrong, but no one says no. Seems like initially, everything is promising to be alright. But now, I get the rejection letter.

Yes, I also aware that my salary is in the very lower limit. But, if you look closely, the rejection letter also doesn't really make so much sense. Let's say I get 52000 annually, it didn't even pass the lower limit of the required salary stated in the rejection letter (4414 * 12  = 52968).
If I have 52000 from the very beginning, they (Hamburg's immigration office) dont have to send it to Employment Agency though.

Anyway, I talked with my employer this afternoon. And their approach is trying to reach the Bezirksamt Hamburg (who sent me this rejection letter) instead of directly with the Employment Agency. They want to have a face to face communication with all of the parties (me, my employer, and the immigration office). Not sure it will work or not though.

However, for the citizen of third world country, Blue Card is the only available working permit, isnt it?
Or is there any other alternative? Because I also asked this in the different forum, someone mentioned that, there is also normal working permit (with longer settlement period [5 years]) which might be another alternative. Is that true? As far as I concern, Blue card is the only way out for me.

Kind Regards,

FF
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
3/12/18 6:31 PM as a reply to javi alco.
javi alco:
Arianne:
Did you really start working without a work permit?!?


If his job visa in the Netherlands is valid in germany, it should not be a problem for him to work without arbeitsvisum or blue card. But he should get blue card before he exceeds the number of working hours mentioned in the job visa. When i started my job, i did not have the work visa, i was told by ABH that i can work on Job visa until I get my arbeitsvisum. 

Best thing is that the employer writes indonesian is necessary for the job.   
Thanks for your response again!

I am not sure if my job visa from the Netherlands is valid in here. But, now you mentioned it. I would like to have a look again. But there is no number of working hours mentioned in my job visa. (only Dutch translation of "The search and performance of work as an employee or not. Work freely allowed. TWV not required. Appealing to general resources can have consequences for the right of residence")

Anyway. your idea is absolutely great!

Thanks again!

Kind Regards,

Fredo Ferdian
0 (0 Votes)

Fredo Ferdian:

Yes, I also aware that my salary is in the very lower limit. But, if you look closely, the rejection letter also doesn't really make so much sense. Let's say I get 52000 annually, it didn't even pass the lower limit of the required salary stated in the rejection letter (4414 * 12  = 52968).
If I have 52000 from the very beginning, they (Hamburg's immigration office) dont have to send it to Employment Agency though.

Anyway, I talked with my employer this afternoon. And their approach is trying to reach the Bezirksamt Hamburg (who sent me this rejection letter) instead of directly with the Employment Agency. They want to have a face to face communication with all of the parties (me, my employer, and the immigration office). Not sure it will work or not though.

However, for the citizen of third world country, Blue Card is the only available working permit, isnt it?

The letter makes perfect sense; they find your salary too low for the position.

For a regular Blue Card a foreigner needs to earn over 52000€ per year and these applicants don't need an extra Zustimmung (see §2 Abs 1 Nr 2a BeschV). 

Although applicants for the low salary Blue Cards can receive a Zustimmung they are not automatically entitled to one (see §2 Abs 2 BeschV).

Your problem is that the authorities seem to think that your salary is too low. If you want a work permit you need to either convince the authorities that your salary is not too low or your employer to offer more than 52000€ per year.

BTW, the average starting salary for engineers without experience is over 43000 per year.
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
3/13/18 7:02 AM as a reply to javi alco.
javi alco:
Arianne:
Did you really start working without a work permit?!?


If his job visa in the Netherlands is valid in germany, it should not be a problem for him to work without arbeitsvisum or blue card. But he should get blue card before he exceeds the number of working hours mentioned in the job visa. When i started my job, i did not have the work visa, i was told by ABH that i can work on Job visa until I get my arbeitsvisum. 

You are comparing apples to oranges. 

A job seeker permit for graduates of German universities allows graduates to work at any job for upto 18 months while looking for a real job. 

However, a Dutch work permit is not valid to start working in Germany.  

I think you should read this info from the Zoll:

http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Arbeit/Aufenthaltstitel/Folgen-bei-Nichtbeachtung/folgen-bei-nichtbeachtung_node.html
0 (0 Votes)

Fredo Ferdian:
Anyway, I talked with my employer this afternoon. And their approach is trying to reach the Bezirksamt Hamburg (who sent me this rejection letter) instead of directly with the Employment Agency. They want to have a face to face communication with all of the parties (me, my employer, and the immigration office). Not sure it will work or not though.
Did you go to the Bezirksamt? What did they say?
0 (0 Votes)

RE: Blue Card Application Rejected (salary meets the MINT requirement)
Answer
6/27/18 11:26 PM as a reply to Arianne.
Arianne:
[quote=
]Anyway, I talked with my employer this afternoon. And their approach is trying to reach the Bezirksamt Hamburg (who sent me this rejection letter) instead of directly with the Employment Agency. They want to have a face to face communication with all of the parties (me, my employer, and the immigration office). Not sure it will work or not though.
Did you go to the Bezirksamt? What did they say?
Hi Arianne,

Thank you very much for your concern regarding my case. Apparently, my employer decided to make some change in my contract. I think they consulted with an immigration lawyer or something. And they reduce my working hour and the job title (still without increasing the salary), and describing some training program in the beginning months. I found something strange. They say that the Employment Agency didn't receive my complete job description (including holiday, working hours etc.) but they do know about my monthly salary (maybe they saw it from Arbeitnehmer-Arbeitplatzbeschreibung-form). That's why my employer decided to review the job contract again. But I'm afraid they do not pay so much effort when filling that form (Arbeitnehmer-Arbeitplatzbeschreibung-form). I and my employer will go together to the Bezirksamt next Monday I believe.

However, I still curious and haven't found any information regarding alternative working permit (not the Bluecard, but what some people call "normal working permit for national from third world country with longer settlement period"). Is it really exist somewhere there? And do you have another suggestion by some chance? I feel like I'm trapped, involved in something that should be done carefully by another party. I guess they did not really consider (or not knowing) this permit issue before deciding to hire me. I have expected this, but I thought they already well understood about this kind of issue.

Kind Regards,
FF
0 (0 Votes)

I would like to give a glance update regarding my current condition. Probably this will help for some of the (future) readers in the forum.

Apparently, after my employer consulted with an immigration lawyer, they reviewed again my job contract. They change the job title from "offshore and shipbuilding engineer" become "offshore project engineer" without changing any job description and salary increase. They reduce my working hour from 40 to 35 hours per week and also include some minor benefits (such as Deutsch course fee and proficard for the public transport) in the contract. In the end, the Federal Employment Agency have approved my Blue Card visa application. To be honest, I am not really sure what is the determining factor of this approval. Whether it is because different job title (and FEA has lower salary database for project engineer), because of the less working hours, or because the fact that FEA didnt receive the job contract before (as I previously mentioned) and just from the second attempt they can review thourughly my job contract. My employer described the first two months salary as a sign-in bonus, and now I have the Blue Card visa stamped in my passport for the next three months while waiting for the electronic version ready (which is valid for 4 years).

Many thanks for the advices and inputs I received from this forum. Actually, my employer is a very small company and still developing. They never hired a non-EU national. They dont even know about the existence of Blue Card before decide to hire me, and eventhough also very limited, somehow I knew a little bit more than them. This is their first experience, and some input I get from here I passed it to them. Therefore, once again, many thanks!

Kind Regards,
FF
+1 (1 Vote)

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