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Working in the EU
aalvarez
Member since 09.01.2004
Posted on 28.08.2005 20:56
Re: Working in the EU
"We have changed the perception of the foreign worker, we have changed helped changed the law, we have created workplaces and helped european companies be more competitive."
open your eyes! do you really believe that IT create new workplaces? if it would be so, nobody would pay so much to people working in IT ...
IT makes it possible to change people on software and computers. we have helped to reduct the number of workplaces.
when most things run automatically, IT professionals are not longer needed as well ... at least not so many of them ...
"Some time ago we discussed the Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 from the EU. It's purpose is to give the same (or similar) rights to long term third country residents as normal EU citizens."
Gemeindeordnung, Baden-Württemberg 
§12 Bürgerrecht
(1) Bürger der Gemeinde ist, wer Deutsche im Sinne von Artikel 116 des Grundgesetzes ist oder die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union besitzt (Unionsbürger), das 18. Lebensjahr vollendet hat und seit mindestens drei Monaten in der Gemeinde wohnt.
...
dream further
"This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions) by 23.01.2006."
ALL member states should comply with EU-Haftbefehl
i mean those officials in Brüssel can decide everything they want to decide, the question is whether it is going to work. if they go too far, EU can fall apart in no time
aalvarez
Member since 09.01.2004
Posted on 29.08.2005 22:22
Re: Working in the EU
"I think that is a very limited view of IT, could it be that people get paid so much because it is hard, and nobody wants to do it?"
therefore we have so many students in the universities studying IT, the ones that will improve the german economy working really hard for 1-2-euros for hour once they finish their studies ...
"how many projects do you personally know that would cover it's own cost?"
in Germany? every project i participated in, even if the things went not as it were expected
"Most companies invest in IT Projects because they have to, just to continue operating."
probably in 90-th, not now and surely not in Germany. the current state of art in project management makes it nearly impossible for programmers to trick their employers into something like that. if some companies decide to save money and trust programmers, they fill ranges of bancrupts really fast
"Yes, they screwed up when they implemented the law, but they will comply."
i very doubt it, because it is like exploding a bomb in own hands
BVerfG just decided a case like it should be decided without saying that it does not comply with a directive. why oppose something directly if it's possible to get the necessary result without opposing anything?
"It will certainly not work if people don't want to exert the rights that are given to them."
The question is not in exertion of rights, it is more in giving away something that makes nation a nation. the officials in Brüssel tend to think that there are no differences between people from different countries whatsoever when they write their directives. that's a grave mistake.
"About the possibilities of it, well, we need to wait and see. In the past it was a dream for GC holders to think about getting Niederlassungserlaubnis...so be optimistic."
I myself would personally oppose such a thing. if somebody wants to have same rights with the natives, they are welcomed to apply for a german citizenship. you can not work , for example, for India and choose how Germany should live, that's my personal opinion
moreover, it would be better for foreigners as well if they do not get those same rights. 'cause otherwise i see the growth of support of NPD as something really inevitable
Posted on 30.08.2005 13:38
Re: Working in the EU
Hi "-",
I don't know why, but you always take extrem examples. Yes, there are german IT newbies who will want to work cheaper than ones with experience. But many of us (GCs) are still in Germany and I'm sure with a good salary.
"I myself would personally oppose such a thing. if somebody wants to have same rights with the natives, they are welcomed to apply for a german citizenship. you can not work , for example, for India and choose how Germany should live, that's my personal opinion"
Well, getting the german citizenship for many of us means to lose our native citizenship. As you may say, it's a personal decision to do it and it should be independent if I decide to stay or leave Germany.
We can live here and have almost the same rights as natives and it should be Ok. Mainly the option to work without restrictions is some that every foreign is trying to do when he/she is another country.
I'm not going to talk about what is good or what is bad (it would be an endless discussion) but simply what it's better for me and my family. So, I hope that this EU directive be accepted, that's all. I'm very sure that if that happens you will be happy too 
Posted on 30.08.2005 21:57
Re: Working in the EU
"I don't know why, but you always take extrem examples. Yes, there are german IT newbies who will want to work cheaper than ones with experience."
heh you didn't understand me. i meant that there will be no work places for those students on the market -> they will have to apply for Alg II -> Alg II means that you can be asked to work for 1-2-euros per hour, and you can't refuse that offer
this was a counterargument to the statement from alvarez who said that working in IT is hard and nobody wants to do it
"Mainly the option to work without restrictions is some that every foreign is trying to do when he/she is another country."
lol germans can not give you the possibility to work without restrictions even if they wanted to. try to persuade people from other EU-countries that you do not need their work permits when you have german NE for example, french
"So, I hope that this EU directive be accepted, that's all."
i am just reading that directive
#16 - not possible. the trend goes in other way - simplification of expulsion procedures, even for those who lived in Germany 20 years and have german citizenship. the bombs in London will even make it worse
#18, 19 - that's what people here really want, but as i said it does not depend from germans. and btw it is not real as well - when old EU-members close their labour markets for new members, how it is possible to expect that they will open those for non-EU-citizens?
anyhow after reading it i can say: that directive in reality does not give you same rights with natives or EU-citizens, and it even does not give you similar rights
Posted on 30.08.2005 23:14
Re: Working in the EU
"this was a counterargument to the statement from alvarez who said that working in IT is hard and nobody wants to do it"
But well, that applies for most of the fields and it doesn't mean that IT isn't hard at all. Anyway this is out-of-topic.
"lol germans can not give you the possibility to work without restrictions even if they wanted to. try to persuade people from other EU-countries that you do not need their work permits when you have german NE for example, french"
In fact, as far as I know, Germany voted against it. I suppose that each EU-country should (must) accepted if it is approved. If that wasn't the case, then why create this directive anyway?
"#16 - not possible.........how it is possible to expect that they will open those for non-EU-citizens?"
I'm assuming that the EU members already discussed your points. As far as understood aalvarez:
"This directive entered into force on the 12.02.2004, and must be implemented by ALL member states (with the already mentioned exceptions)
by 23.01.2006."
So, there is nothing to approve, it's already there, even if you don't like it
"that directive in reality does not give you same rights with natives or EU-citizens, and it even does not give you similar rights"
Every law/policy that help me to improve my situation in Germany/EU is a plus. Just look how happy are the people who are right now getting their Niederlassungserlaubnis.
Yes, I remember you telling that the people who were expecting to get Niederlassungserlaubnis (before the Inmigration Law was approved) were dreamers...
Posted on 15.01.2006 23:04
Re: Working in the EU
Hi All,
There some new stuff regarding this topic, so I thought I should inform you guys as well..
New German Government(Merkel & Co) is planning to accept some bunch of new regulations(in order to conform 2003/109/EC mentioned by aalvarez in this thread) regarding residence permits of the foreigners living in Germany.. the draft can be downloaded from this link..
http://www.fluecht...AendG_ZuwG_030106.pdf
(The changes mentioned in the draft will be most probably part of the new residence law)
There are some interesting points mentioned in the draft:
1-) There will be a new kind of "Niederlassungserlaubnis" which will be named "Niederlassungserlaubnis - Daueraufenthalt EG". With this kind of permit, one will be able work/live in all EU without any other permit. (like an EU Citizen)
2-) This kind of permit will not be unvalid, if the person is still in EU. (A permit taken in Germany will not become invalid, if one starts to live in another EU-State and hence stays more than 6 months out of Germany)
3-) For the holders of this kind of permit, the unvalidity will become effective after they leave EU territory for more than 12 months..(not 6 months)
4-) For this kind of permit(and also for "normal" Niederlassungserlaubnis) the time spent under Student residence permit will be counted.. but the duration of these kind of student residence permits will be divided by 2 for the calculation of the needed 5 years..
Interesting stuff.. huh ? let's see, when this draft becomes reality.. but I guess it should be voted in German Parlement this month or so..
If you guys know more about it, please do share..
and as a last note, this new kind of "Niederlassungserlaubnis" does not require any new conditions compared to the old one.. so basicly the people who are/were in the position of getting the old Niederlassungserlaubnis can get the new one as well.. (there are exceptional cases for asylum seekers & co though)
Regards,
Lacrima
Posted on 16.01.2006 09:56
Re: Working in the EU
@Lacrima
I thought the deadline for transposition of directive 2003/109/EC in the EU Member States was 23 January 2006, until then all EU Member States must have made necessary changes in law to accommodate this directive, ofcourse with exception of UK, Ireland and Denmark. Do you think Merkel & Co. can manage all this in one week?
For example the Govt. of Latvia has alrealy impemented this directive.
http://www.ocma.go...=454&menu__id=124
Here is some info on how a new law is passed in Germany
http://www.bundesr...etzesinitiative_2.gif
________________________________________
Posted on 16.01.2006 11:05
Re: Working in the EU
"Do you think Merkel & Co. can manage all this in one week?"
That is a good question Akshay.. knowing the fact that last immigration law discussion took all different exotic German parlements(How many of them are there actually ? ) 4 years (written "foúr" to complete, I am not that optmistic about a quick decision on this new residence law.. but let's see..
Regards,
Lacrima